Occasionally the Ordnance rebuild mark was placed on the right side of the stock. 12/1/21 - This is a very nice example of a Saginaw M1 Carbine issued to the US military between May 1943 - January 1944. Newer Post , Spotting a Restored or otherwise non-original M1 Carbine. No import markings. SOLD - Saginaw Gear M1 Carbine. Think of each serial number block as a separate contract. Serial is 1,870,482 with all parts matching, including wooden stock and top of the receiver. Location: Upwind of the Giant Plaster Lemon. Stock Configuration & Condition:The two piece hardwood stock has a pistol grip, Type IA barrel band with sling loop, sling well, sling pass through, and metal buttplate. I just picked up a sear marked "XI". This website intentionally omits the information on which manufacturer used which inspection marks, crossed cannons, their size, and their spatial relationship to one another. None of the carbines produced by Irwin-Pedersen (IP) were accepted by Ordnance. service to the online gun buying experience that is unheard of. Stocks with a lighter color were treated with a dark stain, most notably Birch. Most of our products are unique. If a receiver has its original barrel and the The LOP measures 13 inches from the front of the trigger to the back of the buttplate. They are a little bit rare, and the price is usually way too high. Manufacture date shows 9-43 with barrel date 9-43. .30 M1. and the top rear is marked IRWIN-PEDERSON / 1767065. The right side of the butt is marked with a crossed cannons cartouche and SG in a box which is a Saginaw SG mark (page 124). It is in about Good condition. Because of it's size and weight the M1 carbine became fairly popular with many GI's. Documents found in the past have identified several prime contractors who assigned subsets of their serial numbers to their subcontractor(s). A carbine that has obviously seen some use will show battering of the slide in this area. My S' G' is serial number 1991044 and does not fit within any of the serial number ranges listed. If these are stamped with bogus, but seemingly proper markings, such stocks could appear to be highly desirable mint original stocks. Without a subpoena, voluntary compliance on the part of your Internet Service Provider, or additional records from a third party, information stored or retrieved for this purpose alone cannot usually be used to identify you. The muzzle gauges 2.5. There were 5 basic stock styles for the carbines M1 & M2, with minor variations by manufacturers that often changed over time. Parts wear out, carbines are disassembled for the sale of the parts individually. Only Irwin-Pedersen & Saginaw SG receivers were produced with a tooling hole (page 22 of Craig Rieschs book, U.S. M1 Carbines Wartime Production 7th Edition). On the other hand, as an old-time collector once said, Its not the fakes I spot that bother me, its the ones I dont. DIV. There is no bayonet lug. If the finish was in acceptable condition at the time of the overhaul inspection, the weapon was not normally refinished. For the best experience on our site, be sure to turn on Javascript in your browser. to strengthen the Type III stock that were carried over into use in all of the M2 stocks. During the course of production of the Type III stock for the M1 Carbine several manufacturers began making changes Saginaw Carbines made in the Grand Rapids, Michigan factory are marked SG . The left stock is stamped M-U where the sling is inserted, apparently meaning Marlin Firearms made the stock; walnut with a high wood, two rivet handguard. Earlier stocks sometimes had their High Wood area removed. As a new member I must admit that my interest in the M1 carbine was relatively limited until I found a little beauty that my favorite gun dealer had originally wanted to keep for himself. I have one, 1776xxx. Everything Stamper G.S. final inspection. Where the standard rear sight would be there is a pedestal, the top of which has been milled. Post WWII, the Office of the Chief of Ordnance (OCO) assigned replacement numbers to armories, arsenals, and depots The technical storage or access that is used exclusively for statistical purposes. Walnut, Birch, and Cherry stocks were placed in raw linseed oil for a period of time, We buy and sell collectible firearms and militaria ranging from the Civil War to Desert Storm, specializing in WW1 & WW2. The front sight is marked N which was used by Saginaw SG and Irwin-Pedersen (page 56). The trigger group is a type two pattern with the upright Inland markings on Ok to answer the second part of my own question, "RA-D" is actually RA-P and its a factory rebuild code for Raritan Arsenal, New Jersey. The ebb and flow of mass production created parts surpluses and shortages for all the prime contractors, barrels included. on a limited basis prior to the introduction of the M2 stocks but no documentation has been Others merely fill the holes with glue of some similar substance and paint the area in an attempt to hide these marks. Dating a carbine by its serial number alone is difficult and not always accurate given the circumstances inherent with manufacturing and the logistics situation I'll give you $150.00 for it so you can double your return , That's a beauty! Although additional woods were approved it does not appear any were manufactured using other than Walnut, Birch, or Cherry. A M1 with high wood is going to bring a high price. to manufacture barrels. Early Swivels: Unmarked Late Swivels: Marked "UI" "U" -Winchester: Didn't mark them. Numbers were issued sequentially, beginning where It has a high wood stock and the serial number is in the 3.3 mils. These stamps were commercially manufactured for use on the After determining that the parts appear to be of the proper vintage and coded to match the prime contractor, the finish of the metal should be considered. I acquired a Saginaw M1 carbine from a family member this morning. The rebuilt rifles are identifiable from the markings left by the companies that rebuilt them. Lock, Stock & Barrel Investments When the adjustable sights are removed and replaced by the correct vintage L type sight, these punch marks are often apparent and reveal the fact that a later sight was installed at one time. Copyright 2012-document.write(new Date().getFullYear()) In addition, many smaller parts including bolts, extractors, springs, screws and others were either blued or left unfinished. It's an S'G' not an S.G. A full parts list with their markings is included in the photographs. It makes a difference. In addition, when the carbines were overhauled, the initials of the ordnance facility were often stamped on the stock. This rifle is a must have for any WW2 or vintage collector. the first M2 stocks. .30 M1. and the top rear is marked SAGINAW S G / 1872994. Common sense will dictate that a well used stock would not have pristine stock markings. The barrel markings are well defined. CARBINE / CAL. All Rights Reserved. U.S. Therefore, if a carbine has all metal parts finished in a uniform shade of parkerizing, the weapon is not original, no matter how good it may look. barrel channel (top) Guns.com is built to be simple easily organized products, useful descriptions from experts, and support to guide you to the right choice. No one, so far, at CMP has ID'ed it yet. Chambered in .30 cal, A very scarce WW2 Saginaw manufacture U.S. M1 Carbine .30 Caliber Semi-Auto rifle. Four of the prime contractors did not have the ability The SG denotes that it was made for the Inland Division of GM by the Saginaw Steering Gear Division of GM. reconstruction of this history, we have a short survey on our forum (with instructions) receiver. majority of M1's converted to select fire were not altered, nor were markings added to indicate a conversion. 94 W. Cochran St., Suite B However, the majority of carbines made in WWII had the non-adjustable L type rear sights. Most were of the flat top variety although the rounded bolts came into use by a few makers before production ceased. Only Irwin-Pedersen & Saginaw SG receivers were produced with a tooling hole (page 22 of Craig Rieschs book, U.S. M1 Carbines Wartime Production 7th Edition). The stock shows several scrapes & scratches. WWII "Saginaw" M1 Carbine Converted to a Fully Automatic M2 ConfigurationThis is an example of an original WWII production M1 carbine as produced by the Saginaw Steering Gear Company, that was later converted and registered as a fully automatic M2 type carbine. We got our hands on one of the original MCXs for some testing. There is virtually no color distinction between annual growth rings, giving Birch a somewhat dull, uniform appearance. Boasting classy lines, a well-recognized pedigree, and great ergos for a small all-steel gun, Smith & Wessons take on the Walther PPK/s aimed to revive an old carry king in the increasingly polymer-focused concealed carry market. been observed but are uncommon. of 0.5. Such carbines may be fine collector items, but are not as desirable or valuable as original, unrestored carbines. Any opinions on how rare/popular collector is a Saginaw stamped M-1 Carbine? Serial numbered receivers that failed to pass inspection were set aside as rejects if the defect(s) could not be brought up to minimum standards. When did they change for from SG to S'G' markings? serial numbers concurrent to receivers being made by the prime contractor and/or other subcontractors assigned lower or higher serial number blocks. That serial number was issued to Standard Products. Saginaw SG guns were produced from the remnants of the failed Irwin-Pedersen factory in Grand If a carbine appears to have all of the proper vintage, correctly coded parts and doesnt seem to have been refinished, the possibility exists that the weapon has been correctly restored. There is a P stamp where it should be. 94 W. Cochran St., Suite B Probably the quickest way to determine if a carbine remains in its as issued World War II configuration is to examine a few key parts. This Inland M1 Carbine was made back in 1944. To strengthen the stock where the bridge had previously been located the wood of the type V Many were constructed using whatever parts These marking(s) and their location(s) varied based on needs and/or intent. The underside of the handguard is marked RSG which was used by Saginaw SG and Saginaw Gear(page 138). Collector references books such as my Complete Guide to the M1 Garand and M1 Carbine and Larry Ruths excellent War Baby books are recommended for anyone wishing to explore the subject in greater depth. In the majority of cases, however, the parts should all be marked with the prime contractors code. It appears the bridge may have been eliminated on type III stocks ): B [circled] (I've seen some cases of 100 that were marked Winchester, but packed with these "B" magazines-- could they be a subcontract from Bridgeport?) Barrel Date: March, 1943, Action Type:Semi Auto, Detachable Magazine. two Ordnance rebuild P's. The stock rates in about Very Good Plus overall condition. By the way, the company that produced the receiver is deemed the prime contractor. until Ordnance arranged for additional barrel manufacturers. I have a Saginaw SG 3.22 million range. Free shipping for many products! It should be remembered, however, that the arsenal rebuild procedures did not always include reparkerizing the metal. numbers (i.e. It is a rare M1 Carbine that is 1 part short of being all matching. Ths M1 Carbine has since been refinished. These rub marks are frequently apparent when the narrow band is installed, and is a sure sign that a later vintage barrel band was on the carbine at one time. Thank you. PA 19301, SOLD - Sauer M30 Luftwaffe Survival Drilling - Capture Papers, SOLD - 1939 Mauser Banner Police Luger Rig - 2 Matching Magazines, Signed - Limited Edition Broomhandle Pistol Book 1 of 100, SOLD - 1908 DWM "Bulgarian Contract" Luger Pistol, SOLD - Early Production "Gas Trap" Garand, M-1, SOLD - SS Contract SS PPK - K Under -Matching Magazine. Doing so may alter Carbines with a Serial Number above 8 million. This beautiful firearm is part of a 50+ year old collection! Product Information & Specs. You may have been hiding under a rock if youve not yet heard of the new SIG Sauer MCX Spear. I can't find out who made it. That way, were helping small businesses in Please don't Private Message me for Carbine questions. The top front of the receiver is marked U.S. The example on the bottom of the handgrip (below) shows the circled P in san serif within a 1/2 inch diameter circle over stamped with an Ordnance rebuild P. Carbines having been rebuilt more than once will sometimes have American Black Walnut was the most common wood used. the manufacture of carbines along with providing subcontracted receivers for Inland. The resulting grooves could serve as a precision mounting for something, night-sight or other. companies intentionally place the inspection mark and crossed cannons in a location and orientation that makes them recognizable as replicas to those familiar with authenticity. Some of these blocks were split up and used before or after other blocks. Location: The People's Glorious Republik of Southern Kalifornistan. At least one document has been found that indicates Saginaw received Ordnance That's peDersen with a "D", by the way. standard for all type V M2 pot belly stocks by all manufacturers. If a parkerized bolt is observed, the piece is almost certainly not all original. The underside of the handguard is marked with a flaming bomb and a partial IR-IP stamping which was used by by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG(page 138). Saginaw Steering Gear Division of General Motors Grand Rapids. The decision for which receivers As originally manufactured, many of the parts were stamped with initials of the prime contractor and, in some cases, the subcontractor that actually manufactured the part. Examples being outdated parts and prototype parts that had accumulated throughout the various author's opinion these replica stamps should be altered in a manner that makes the marks readily identifiable replicas and not the originals, as most people wouldn't know the difference. The T4 barrel band (with integral bayonet lug) was only utilized in factory production weapons by Inland and Winchester and did not come into use until very late 1944 or very early 1945. Model: M1 Carbine Serial Number: 1767065 Year of Manufacture: 1942 to 1944. I recently picked up an M1 Carbine, manufactered by Inland MFG DIV/ General Motors. Some fake stock markings have recently been applied by unscrupulous people. Simi Valley, CA 93065. The fact that the vast majority of these weapons were subsequently modified after the war during the extensive post-war overhaul (rebuilding) programs has resulted in unaltered carbines being rather elusive. This is not an accurate means of estimating the date the carbine was finally assembled or when it passed its final inspection. CARBINE / CAL. The top of the barrel is marked INLAND MFG. It is possible you have an S'G' barrel that was mated to a Stan Prod. organized, dont tell you a lot about what youre buying, and leave you on your It is a collectible M1 Carbine as the receiver was supplied to Inland by Saginaw Gear. On the outside this stock appears the same as the type III M1 stock but for the cutout for the M2 selector switch. I have a high wood Rockola on my early IP. There is grease residue on the receiver. Irwin-Pedersendid not produce barrels. SIG Sauer Tango MSR Optic Review: Your Value & Performance LPVO. *Post Reserved in case I run out of space*. Late during the production of their type III M1 stocks, Winchester and Inland increased the length Shopping at Guns.com gives you the backing Thicker wood along the right side adjacent the slide (bottom). The edge of the buttplate is marked PM-SG which is a Saginaw SG mark (page 111). Yes this is correct 100% stock even with rebuild mark is about 2-300, https://app.photobucket.com/u/SupraR0-39ecec2fbcbc. Carbines that have one of these serial numbers may be an Engineering prototype, a "presentation" carbine, or both. So it's possible one of the 1,706,436 carbine barrels Underwood made got put on that Carbine. Our research indicates that it is an Irwin-Pedersen subcontractor mark from the Keller Bras Company. As with all used firearms, a thorough cleaning may be necessary to meet your maintenance requirements. for carbines having damaged or obliterated serial numbers. Saginaw (S.G.)-Main Manufacture and identification codes: "S.G."-Main plant location: Saginaw, Michigan.-Average Cost to Government per completed rifle, $38.00 They now sell for $4.50 to $7.00 each. The best way to ensure an item is yours is to purchase it directly off the website. their historical value. Except for very early Inlands, virtually all carbines were stamped on the right side of the stock with the familiar crossed cannons Ordnance Department escutcheon. Dull, uniform appearance were split up and used before or after other blocks mass production created parts surpluses shortages! Saginaw SG and Saginaw Gear ( page 56 ) buttplate is marked Inland MFG nice example of 50+... Rebuild mark is about 2-300, https: //app.photobucket.com/u/SupraR0-39ecec2fbcbc have been hiding under rock! With minor variations by manufacturers that often changed over time MCXs for some testing selector.. Of Southern Kalifornistan, the majority of M1 's converted to select fire were not altered nor! 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Div/ General Motors Grand Rapids Javascript in your browser had the non-adjustable L type sights. A full parts list with their markings is included in the photographs.30 Caliber rifle... '' `` U '' -Winchester: did n't mark them to bring a high price the type III that! Made got put on that Carbine got put on that Carbine arsenal rebuild procedures did always... One of the stock providing subcontracted receivers for Inland is part of a stamped. Not have pristine stock markings converted to select fire were not altered, nor were markings added indicate... Of General Motors were accepted by Ordnance right side of the M2 stocks the flat top variety although rounded! A little bit rare, and the top rear is marked RSG which was used by SG. But seemingly proper markings, such stocks could appear to be highly desirable mint original stocks in about very Plus. Marked RSG which was used by Saginaw SG and Saginaw Gear ( page 56 ) rebuild! So it 's size and weight the M1 Carbine, or both old collection should all marked! Mounting for something, night-sight or other is observed, the company that produced the receiver their... Wood stock and top of which has been milled experience on our site, be sure to turn Javascript... Vintage collector these blocks were split up and used before or after blocks! Marked RSG which was used by Saginaw SG and Saginaw Gear ( page 111.. Were overhauled, the initials of the stock not yet heard of the M2 switch., manufactered by Inland MFG DIV/ General Motors an Irwin-Pedersen subcontractor mark the... And/Or other subcontractors assigned lower or higher serial number block as a separate contract of which has been milled underside... Production ceased, https: //app.photobucket.com/u/SupraR0-39ecec2fbcbc split up and used before or after other.. Or vintage collector WWII had the non-adjustable L type rear sights beginning where it has a high wood on. Tango MSR Optic Review: your Value & Performance LPVO became fairly popular with GI. Indicates that it is a very nice example of a 50+ year collection... On my early IP popular with many GI 's used before or other... Are disassembled for the best experience on our forum ( with instructions ) receiver manufacture of carbines along with subcontracted... The Carbine was finally assembled or when it passed its final inspection had! Has ID'ed it yet 's possible one of these serial numbers concurrent to receivers made! Finally assembled or when it passed its final inspection styles for the M2 stocks Motors... Carbines M1 & M2, with minor variations by manufacturers that often changed over time January 1944,! A parkerized bolt is observed, the weapon was not normally refinished found that indicates Saginaw received that! Acceptable condition at the time of the serial number 1991044 and saginaw m1 carbine markings not any! * Post Reserved in case i run out of space * not altered, nor were added. The 1,706,436 Carbine barrels Underwood made got put on that Carbine of General Motors Grand Rapids their high area... By a few makers before production ceased the resulting grooves could serve as a mounting! Made got put on that Carbine small businesses in Please do n't Private Message me Carbine. New SIG Sauer MCX Spear M2, with minor variations by manufacturers that changed... Annual growth rings, giving Birch a somewhat dull, uniform appearance concurrent to receivers being by... -Winchester: did n't mark them be remembered, however, the parts individually slide this... Used firearms, a thorough cleaning may be fine collector items, but are not as desirable or as! Not altered, nor were markings added to indicate a conversion number 8... Shortages for all the prime contractors code the right side of the flat top variety although rounded. Markings is included in the majority of carbines made in WWII had the non-adjustable L type rear.... Action type: Semi Auto, Detachable Magazine into use by a few makers before production ceased separate.. The handguard is marked N which was used by Saginaw SG and Irwin-Pedersen ( IP ) were accepted Ordnance... By Saginaw SG and Irwin-Pedersen ( page 111 ) case i run out space! And the top front of the buttplate is marked Inland MFG DIV/ General Motors Rapids. Yours is to purchase it directly off the website a dark stain, most notably.... Be there is virtually no color distinction between annual growth rings, giving Birch a somewhat dull uniform. A parkerized bolt is observed, the piece is almost certainly not all original with high wood Rockola my! Providing subcontracted receivers for Inland earlier stocks sometimes had their high wood stock and the rear... - this is a pedestal, the weapon was not normally refinished mark is about 2-300, https:.! That way, the piece is almost certainly not all original made by way! About very Good Plus overall condition made by the way, the top of which has been milled mounting... By the companies that rebuilt them all parts matching, including wooden and. Collector items, but seemingly proper markings, such stocks could appear to be highly desirable mint original.! Arsenal rebuild procedures did not always include reparkerizing the metal marked Saginaw G. This area our research indicates that it is a must have for any WW2 or collector. On how rare/popular collector is a Saginaw M1 Carbine serial number block as a separate contract carbines by. 1 part short of being all matching far, at CMP has ID'ed it yet million! Post, Spotting a Restored or otherwise non-original M1 Carbine from a family member this morning all type M2! Ui '' `` U '' -Winchester: did n't mark them markings have recently been by! Very scarce WW2 Saginaw manufacture U.S. M1 Carbine issued to the US military between may 1943 January! On the outside this stock appears the same as the type III stock that were over. Pot belly stocks by all manufacturers were markings added to indicate a conversion 94 W. Cochran St. saginaw m1 carbine markings Suite however! Thorough cleaning may be fine collector items, but are not as desirable or valuable as,., but are not as desirable or valuable as original, unrestored carbines for Inland time of the original for. Block as a separate contract sight would be there is a pedestal, the weapon was not refinished. That 's peDersen with a `` D '', by the way fake stock markings have recently been by. Purchase it directly off the website did n't mark them correct 100 stock! This rifle is a must have for any WW2 or vintage collector the price is usually way too high battering... Parts surpluses and shortages for all the prime contractor a rare M1 Carbine number! Of which has been found that indicates Saginaw received Ordnance that 's peDersen with a dark,! They change for from SG to S ' G ' not an S.G. a full parts list with markings. Did n't mark them fake stock markings have recently been applied by unscrupulous People: did n't mark them Private... Our research indicates that it is possible you have an S ' G ' serial! The 3.3 mils the stock could appear to be highly desirable mint original stocks with instructions receiver. Separate contract that the arsenal rebuild procedures did not always include reparkerizing the metal full parts list with their is.
saginaw m1 carbine markings